Announcement

01-20-05, 10:10 AM

Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error

Hi Darren,

I've seen two things in scrips cause an "engine crash".
Neither are actually engine crashes as you'll see below
and only the first could really be attributed to a bug
in the script.

1) Infinite loop / deadlock. The infinite loop condition
can be caused by any number of programming errors, and
deadlock can occur with lockfiles. Both can cause the
server to issue a Server 500 error if the server timeout
is shorter than the engine timeout. (though recently I've
seen the engine stop processing and display an error code
if it thinks it has detected a deadlock)

2) Significant memory consumption. If a script uses up
too much memory, the web server may kill the engine. Most
common on hosts that artificially limit the process size.
This will also cause a Server 500 error.

Other than this, nothing you do in Miva Script should
cause a server crash. In theory. :) Now, I *have* seen
instances where incorrect token/template code caused
an infinite loop, leading the store owner and/or host
to "blame" the module that allows template/token code.
But again, that's not a module bug, it's just a danger
of having interpreted code that a customer can modify.

Regards,
James

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Darren
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:52 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]
Subject: [mrc] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error

I'm getting sick and tired of having my scripts being blamed for crashes in
the Miva Empresa for Windows engine.

Can ANYONE show me any MivaScript that when coded improperly should cause
the engine to crash? Obviously, there must be SOMETHING that I'm doing in
my MivaScript that regularly can cause the Miva Engine to crash (at least
the Windows version), and is documented somewhere as being something NOT to
do.....but I cannot find anything listed anywhere.

I know in C/C++ you have pointers....lots of room to do things wrong and
crash, but I just cannot find any such language constructs in MivaScript.
But, since Miva Support and Development Staff continually "pass-the-buck" by
blaming me, I thought I would finally solicit information from other
MivaScripts users...because obviously I'm missing something here.

Thanks for your time.

Darren Ehlers
OpenUI Developer Consortium
<A HREF ="http://www.openui.org/">http://www.openui.org/</A>

01-20-05, 10:18 AM

RE: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error

Darren,

I assume you're using uncompiled? I had some issues with the engine =
crashing
because of my code; however I don't remember exactly what caused it (I =
think
it might have been a loop or something, don't know). I'll see if I can =
find
any example.

I've been using the VM ever since it came out, so I don't use uncompiled =
any
more. Haven't had those problems since the old empresa days.

But I know that bad code CAN cause the engine to crash (of course it =
doesn't
mean that is the problem).

HTH,

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =
Behalf
Of Darren
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 11:52 AM
To: [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]
Subject: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error

I'm getting sick and tired of having my scripts being blamed for crashes =
in
the Miva Empresa for Windows engine.

Can ANYONE show me any MivaScript that when coded improperly should =
cause
the engine to crash? Obviously, there must be SOMETHING that I'm doing =
in
my MivaScript that regularly can cause the Miva Engine to crash (at =
least
the Windows version), and is documented somewhere as being something NOT =
to
do.....but I cannot find anything listed anywhere.

I know in C/C++ you have pointers....lots of room to do things wrong and
crash, but I just cannot find any such language constructs in =
MivaScript.
But, since Miva Support and Development Staff continually =
"pass-the-buck" by
blaming me, I thought I would finally solicit information from other
MivaScripts users...because obviously I'm missing something here.

Thanks for your time.

Darren Ehlers
OpenUI Developer Consortium
<A HREF ="http://www.openui.org/=20">http://www.openui.org/=20</A>

01-20-05, 10:25 AM

RE: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error

Nope, using compiled....but it's the same issue that has been going on for
4-5 years with Miva Empresa for Windows. When put under any load, it seems
to just croak.

And you say that bad code can cause the engine to crash....do you have any
examples?

Darren

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ben Walsh
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:18 PM
> To: [email protected]; [email protected];
> [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error
>
>
> Darren,
>
> I assume you're using uncompiled? I had some issues with the
> engine crashing because of my code; however I don't remember
> exactly what caused it (I think it might have been a loop or
> something, don't know). I'll see if I can find any example.
>
> I've been using the VM ever since it came out, so I don't use
> uncompiled any more. Haven't had those problems since the old
> empresa days.
>
> But I know that bad code CAN cause the engine to crash (of
> course it doesn't mean that is the problem).
>
> HTH,
>
> Ben
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Darren
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 11:52 AM
> To: [email protected]; [email protected];
> [email protected]
> Subject: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error
>
> I'm getting sick and tired of having my scripts being blamed
> for crashes in the Miva Empresa for Windows engine.
>
> Can ANYONE show me any MivaScript that when coded improperly
> should cause the engine to crash? Obviously, there must be
> SOMETHING that I'm doing in my MivaScript that regularly can
> cause the Miva Engine to crash (at least the Windows
> version), and is documented somewhere as being something NOT
> to do.....but I cannot find anything listed anywhere.
>
> I know in C/C++ you have pointers....lots of room to do
> things wrong and crash, but I just cannot find any such
> language constructs in MivaScript. But, since Miva Support
> and Development Staff continually "pass-the-buck" by blaming
> me, I thought I would finally solicit information from other
> MivaScripts users...because obviously I'm missing something here.
>
> Thanks for your time.
>
> Darren Ehlers
> OpenUI Developer Consortium
> <A HREF ="http://www.openui.org/ ">http://www.openui.org/ </A>
>
>
>
>

01-20-05, 10:30 AM

Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error

> 2) Significant memory consumption.

Good point James. You reminded me that I've had the engine crash after
accessing a large database (several hundred megs) - using ODBC.

Not that it helps any...

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] =
[mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of James Harrell
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:11 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [mrc] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error

Hi Darren,

I've seen two things in scrips cause an "engine crash".
Neither are actually engine crashes as you'll see below
and only the first could really be attributed to a bug
in the script.

1) Infinite loop / deadlock. The infinite loop condition
can be caused by any number of programming errors, and
deadlock can occur with lockfiles. Both can cause the
server to issue a Server 500 error if the server timeout
is shorter than the engine timeout. (though recently I've
seen the engine stop processing and display an error code
if it thinks it has detected a deadlock)

2) Significant memory consumption. If a script uses up
too much memory, the web server may kill the engine. Most
common on hosts that artificially limit the process size.
This will also cause a Server 500 error.

Other than this, nothing you do in Miva Script should
cause a server crash. In theory. :) Now, I *have* seen
instances where incorrect token/template code caused
an infinite loop, leading the store owner and/or host
to "blame" the module that allows template/token code.
But again, that's not a module bug, it's just a danger
of having interpreted code that a customer can modify.

Regards,
James

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Darren
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:52 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]
Subject: [mrc] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error

I'm getting sick and tired of having my scripts being blamed for crashes =
in
the Miva Empresa for Windows engine.

Can ANYONE show me any MivaScript that when coded improperly should =
cause
the engine to crash? Obviously, there must be SOMETHING that I'm doing =
in
my MivaScript that regularly can cause the Miva Engine to crash (at =
least
the Windows version), and is documented somewhere as being something NOT =
to
do.....but I cannot find anything listed anywhere.

I know in C/C++ you have pointers....lots of room to do things wrong and
crash, but I just cannot find any such language constructs in =
MivaScript.
But, since Miva Support and Development Staff continually =
"pass-the-buck" by
blaming me, I thought I would finally solicit information from other
MivaScripts users...because obviously I'm missing something here.

Thanks for your time.

Darren Ehlers
OpenUI Developer Consortium
<A HREF ="http://www.openui.org/">http://www.openui.org/</A>

01-20-05, 10:43 AM

RE: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error

It probably is a "Miva bug", in that it does not handle the error correctly
(I've seen this with incomplete tags (like null info in SMTP if I'm not
mistaken), endless loops, database access, etc, but these are also related
to coding).

Does the problem happen consistently with the same module, or
intermittently? Does it always happen on the same server? If you're getting
the error a lot I would have to say that it must be either a coding or
server configuration issue.

I wouldn't say that the VM is the most stable thing on earth, but I've not
had much trouble, even with resource intensive scripts.

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: Darren [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:26 PM
To: 'Ben Walsh'; [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]
Subject: RE: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error

Nope, using compiled....but it's the same issue that has been going on for
4-5 years with Miva Empresa for Windows. When put under any load, it seems
to just croak.

And you say that bad code can cause the engine to crash....do you have any
examples?

Darren

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ben Walsh
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:18 PM
> To: [email protected]; [email protected];
> [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error
>
>
> Darren,
>
> I assume you're using uncompiled? I had some issues with the
> engine crashing because of my code; however I don't remember
> exactly what caused it (I think it might have been a loop or
> something, don't know). I'll see if I can find any example.
>
> I've been using the VM ever since it came out, so I don't use
> uncompiled any more. Haven't had those problems since the old
> empresa days.
>
> But I know that bad code CAN cause the engine to crash (of
> course it doesn't mean that is the problem).
>
> HTH,
>
> Ben
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Darren
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 11:52 AM
> To: [email protected]; [email protected];
> [email protected]
> Subject: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error
>
> I'm getting sick and tired of having my scripts being blamed
> for crashes in the Miva Empresa for Windows engine.
>
> Can ANYONE show me any MivaScript that when coded improperly
> should cause the engine to crash? Obviously, there must be
> SOMETHING that I'm doing in my MivaScript that regularly can
> cause the Miva Engine to crash (at least the Windows
> version), and is documented somewhere as being something NOT
> to do.....but I cannot find anything listed anywhere.
>
> I know in C/C++ you have pointers....lots of room to do
> things wrong and crash, but I just cannot find any such
> language constructs in MivaScript. But, since Miva Support
> and Development Staff continually "pass-the-buck" by blaming
> me, I thought I would finally solicit information from other
> MivaScripts users...because obviously I'm missing something here.
>
> Thanks for your time.
>
> Darren Ehlers
> OpenUI Developer Consortium
> <A HREF ="http://www.openui.org/ ">http://www.openui.org/ </A>
>
>
>
>

01-20-05, 10:49 AM

RE: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error

No, it's not consistent, and only occurs "sometimes". It also only occurs
on windows-based servers...seems to be tied to system load.

And while I agree that the VM appears pretty stable under Linux, have you
tried any under Windows?

Darren

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ben Walsh
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:43 PM
> To: [email protected];
> [email protected]; [email protected]
> Subject: [mrc] RE: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error
>
>
> It probably is a "Miva bug", in that it does not handle the
> error correctly (I've seen this with incomplete tags (like
> null info in SMTP if I'm not mistaken), endless loops,
> database access, etc, but these are also related to coding).
>
> Does the problem happen consistently with the same module, or
> intermittently? Does it always happen on the same server? If
> you're getting the error a lot I would have to say that it
> must be either a coding or server configuration issue.
>
> I wouldn't say that the VM is the most stable thing on earth,
> but I've not had much trouble, even with resource intensive scripts.
>
> Ben
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darren [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:26 PM
> To: 'Ben Walsh'; [email protected];
> [email protected]; [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error
>
> Nope, using compiled....but it's the same issue that has been
> going on for 4-5 years with Miva Empresa for Windows. When
> put under any load, it seems to just croak.
>
> And you say that bad code can cause the engine to crash....do
> you have any examples?
>
> Darren
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected]
> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ben Walsh
> > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:18 PM
> > To: [email protected]; [email protected];
> > [email protected]
> > Subject: RE: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error
> >
> >
> > Darren,
> >
> > I assume you're using uncompiled? I had some issues with the
> > engine crashing because of my code; however I don't remember
> > exactly what caused it (I think it might have been a loop or
> > something, don't know). I'll see if I can find any example.
> >
> > I've been using the VM ever since it came out, so I don't use
> > uncompiled any more. Haven't had those problems since the old
> > empresa days.
> >
> > But I know that bad code CAN cause the engine to crash (of
> > course it doesn't mean that is the problem).
> >
> > HTH,
> >
> > Ben
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected]
> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Darren
> > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 11:52 AM
> > To: [email protected]; [email protected];
> > [email protected]
> > Subject: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error
> >
> > I'm getting sick and tired of having my scripts being blamed
> > for crashes in the Miva Empresa for Windows engine.
> >
> > Can ANYONE show me any MivaScript that when coded improperly
> > should cause the engine to crash? Obviously, there must be
> > SOMETHING that I'm doing in my MivaScript that regularly can
> > cause the Miva Engine to crash (at least the Windows
> > version), and is documented somewhere as being something NOT
> > to do.....but I cannot find anything listed anywhere.
> >
> > I know in C/C++ you have pointers....lots of room to do
> > things wrong and crash, but I just cannot find any such
> > language constructs in MivaScript. But, since Miva Support
> > and Development Staff continually "pass-the-buck" by blaming
> > me, I thought I would finally solicit information from other
> > MivaScripts users...because obviously I'm missing something here.
> >
> > Thanks for your time.
> >
> > Darren Ehlers
> > OpenUI Developer Consortium
> > <A HREF ="http://www.openui.org/">http://www.openui.org/</A>
> >
> >
> >
> >

01-20-05, 11:06 AM

RE: Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error

I've only run the VM on Windows. What version of IIS is the server =
running?
Does the application handle a lot of requests?

Now that I think of it, I developed an application for a company that =
had
the same problem. Intermittent crashes. We had to restart IIS every =
couple
days (Win2k AS). I never did figure out trace it down to exactly why.

I've since moved to Windows 2003 for all my Miva development, and I've =
not
had any trouble since last year (except self-inflicted problems =3D). =
BTW, IIS
6 ISAPI handling is much more stable that its predecessor (probably not =
what
you wanted to hear though).

Ben

P.S. If you want, you can run the application on my Win2k3 server and =
see if
the same problem happens. Contact me off-list.

-----Original Message-----
From: Darren [mailto:[email protected]]=20
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:49 PM
To: 'Ben Walsh'; [email protected]; =
[email protected];
[email protected]
Subject: RE: [mrc] RE: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error

No, it's not consistent, and only occurs "sometimes". It also only =
occurs
on windows-based servers...seems to be tied to system load.

And while I agree that the VM appears pretty stable under Linux, have =
you
tried any under Windows?

Darren

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]=20
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ben Walsh
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:43 PM
> To: [email protected];=20
> [email protected]; [email protected]
> Subject: [mrc] RE: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error
>=20
>=20
> It probably is a "Miva bug", in that it does not handle the=20
> error correctly (I've seen this with incomplete tags (like=20
> null info in SMTP if I'm not mistaken), endless loops,=20
> database access, etc, but these are also related to coding).
>=20
> Does the problem happen consistently with the same module, or=20
> intermittently? Does it always happen on the same server? If=20
> you're getting the error a lot I would have to say that it=20
> must be either a coding or server configuration issue.
>=20
> I wouldn't say that the VM is the most stable thing on earth,=20
> but I've not had much trouble, even with resource intensive scripts.
>=20
> Ben
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darren [mailto:[email protected]]=20
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:26 PM
> To: 'Ben Walsh'; [email protected];=20
> [email protected]; [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error
>=20
> Nope, using compiled....but it's the same issue that has been=20
> going on for 4-5 years with Miva Empresa for Windows. When=20
> put under any load, it seems to just croak.
>=20
> And you say that bad code can cause the engine to crash....do=20
> you have any examples?
>=20
> Darren
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected]
> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ben Walsh
> > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:18 PM
> > To: [email protected]; [email protected];=20
> > [email protected]
> > Subject: RE: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error
> >=20
> >=20
> > Darren,
> >=20
> > I assume you're using uncompiled? I had some issues with the
> > engine crashing because of my code; however I don't remember=20
> > exactly what caused it (I think it might have been a loop or=20
> > something, don't know). I'll see if I can find any example.
> >=20
> > I've been using the VM ever since it came out, so I don't use
> > uncompiled any more. Haven't had those problems since the old=20
> > empresa days.
> >=20
> > But I know that bad code CAN cause the engine to crash (of
> > course it doesn't mean that is the problem).
> >=20
> > HTH,
> >=20
> > Ben
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected]
> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Darren
> > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 11:52 AM
> > To: [email protected]; [email protected];=20
> > [email protected]
> > Subject: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error
> >=20
> > I'm getting sick and tired of having my scripts being blamed
> > for crashes in the Miva Empresa for Windows engine.
> >=20
> > Can ANYONE show me any MivaScript that when coded improperly
> > should cause the engine to crash? Obviously, there must be=20
> > SOMETHING that I'm doing in my MivaScript that regularly can=20
> > cause the Miva Engine to crash (at least the Windows=20
> > version), and is documented somewhere as being something NOT=20
> > to do.....but I cannot find anything listed anywhere.
> >=20
> > I know in C/C++ you have pointers....lots of room to do
> > things wrong and crash, but I just cannot find any such=20
> > language constructs in MivaScript. But, since Miva Support=20
> > and Development Staff continually "pass-the-buck" by blaming=20
> > me, I thought I would finally solicit information from other=20
> > MivaScripts users...because obviously I'm missing something here.
> >=20
> > Thanks for your time.
> >=20
> > Darren Ehlers
> > OpenUI Developer Consortium
> > <A HREF ="http://www.openui.org/">http://www.openui.org/</A>
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20

01-20-05, 12:01 PM

RE: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error

Hi Darren,

Frankly I am quite "happy" to hear that I am not the only one who manages to
crash the engine with regular Mivascripts.

On Linux or FreeBSD I never experienced any stability problems for identical
scripts like I do on my Windows servers (Win2000 and Win2003, both on IIS 5
and 6). What is extremely annoying now is that after 4 or 5 repeated crashes
of EmpresaVM, IIS6 shuts Empresa off, basically requiring a manual restart
of IIS. Of course as a security measure that is probably a good thing.

I tend to attribute most of these crashes to filesystem issues relating to
packing and locking. I also know that Empresa -sometimes- crashes on some
array functions (miva_array_deserialize() when there are over 12.500
(approx.) array members), and it choke so badly on some scripts that used
glosub array that I actually never used it anymore. It's possible that this
has been fixed since.

miva_array_deserialize() never had any problems on *nix.

I have a few scripts that can run for several hours, and here, too, the
engine occassionally simply dies without any further notice (or entry into
Wins event log). Since Mivascript was never truly designed for these kind of
things, I did not consider this as a big problem (as a matter of fact it is
quite impressive that the old lady -Empresa- handles some of those long
running things so well). A simple workaround is to break the long task into
smaller tasks that automatically call the next one, even though the
undelying problem might still persist.

I suspected memory issues, but there was nothing really worrysome to observe
during runtime of these scripts (enough memory, no strange leaks etc). Even
MivaMia handled really large amounts of memory quite well (>1GB) when even
my mouse wouldn't move anymore.

Markus

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Darren
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:52 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]
Subject: [meu] Bug In Miva Engine or just Scripting Error

I'm getting sick and tired of having my scripts being blamed for crashes in
the Miva Empresa for Windows engine.

Can ANYONE show me any MivaScript that when coded improperly should cause
the engine to crash? Obviously, there must be SOMETHING that I'm doing in
my MivaScript that regularly can cause the Miva Engine to crash (at least
the Windows version), and is documented somewhere as being something NOT to
do.....but I cannot find anything listed anywhere.

I know in C/C++ you have pointers....lots of room to do things wrong and
crash, but I just cannot find any such language constructs in MivaScript.
But, since Miva Support and Development Staff continually "pass-the-buck" by
blaming me, I thought I would finally solicit information from other
MivaScripts users...because obviously I'm missing something here.

Thanks for your time.

Darren Ehlers
OpenUI Developer Consortium
<A HREF ="http://www.openui.org/ ">http://www.openui.org/ </A>

01-21-05, 08:28 PM

Scot's Mailing List update: multipart html/text emails

Hello,

For those who requested that Scot's Mailing List include multipart
html/text message support, it has been added. Now when emails are sent
out, both the HTML and text message are sent together in such a way that
only the HMTL or the text part of the message is displayed, depending on
the capabilities of the recipient's email software.

This feature can be turned on or off in the configuration for those who
don't need it and prefer the original way of choosing html/text messages.

Download the script to upgrade (free) or to test it out from here:

<A HREF ="http://www.scotsscripts.com/scripts/scotmail2.zip">http://www.scotsscripts.com/scripts/scotmail2.zip</A>

Scot

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