Search for "red" finds textured

I beat this horse a year or two ago.......with no luck maybe something
has changed for better now ?
Using Viking Coders Search manager in lieu of mm4 built in with a 4.20
store.

Goal is to search for products with a specific color like red, blue,
green, yellow, black etc

Search for "red" finds textured because the name contains the string
"red"
This is bad.

What can be done about this limitation ?

Will MM 5.x do any better ?

I would really like to think that I would NOT need to create an
addtitional field for keywords to get proper results which would of
course be dependent on the user comprehending how to apply the advanced
search technique.

Also would like to avoid categorizing several thousand products by
color group to force them into an official category too.


Thanks,
-Barrett
http://handmade-paper.us
Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
ShipWorks by Interapptive.com

Search for "red" finds textured



You've already mentioned the only two workarounds for this that I'm aware
of. It's exactly why I've often suggested that Merchant's search function
should be overhauled.

My impression (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) is that the
3rd party search modules still rely on the stock search routine but simply
build on that by adding formatting, searching additional fields, limiting
the search to specific fields or categories, etc.

As for MM5, I don't know for certain but I feel fairly confident that it's
no different since an improvement like that would surely have been mentioned
by someone by now.

Unless you make a change yourself in how your products are set up a search
will always find results just the way you described without using any logic
to separate them or sort based on relevance.

Dan
Impulse Creations

For low priced back issue comics and the very best in service visit us at
www.impulsecreations.net and be sure to look for information on our
discounted subscription service with free bags and free shipping!

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Barrett
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured

I beat this horse a year or two ago.......with no luck maybe something
has changed for better now ?
Using Viking Coders Search manager in lieu of mm4 built in with a 4.20
store.

Goal is to search for products with a specific color like red, blue,
green, yellow, black etc

Search for "red" finds textured because the name contains the string
"red"
This is bad.

What can be done about this limitation ?

Will MM 5.x do any better ?

I would really like to think that I would NOT need to create an
addtitional field for keywords to get proper results which would of
course be dependent on the user comprehending how to apply the advanced
search technique.

Also would like to avoid categorizing several thousand products by
color group to force them into an official category too.


Thanks,
-Barrett
http://handmade-paper.us
Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
ShipWorks by Interapptive.com

Search for "red" finds textured



On 5/6/05, Barrett <[email protected]> wrote:
> I beat this horse a year or two ago.......with no luck maybe something
> has changed for better now ?
> Using Viking Coders Search manager in lieu of mm4 built in with a 4.20
> store.
>=20
> Goal is to search for products with a specific color like red, blue,
> green, yellow, black etc
>=20
> Search for "red" finds textured because the name contains the string
> "red"
> This is bad.
>=20
> What can be done about this limitation ?
>=20
> Will MM 5.x do any better ?
>=20
> I would really like to think that I would NOT need to create an
> addtitional field for keywords to get proper results which would of
> course be dependent on the user comprehending how to apply the advanced
> search technique.
>=20
> Also would like to avoid categorizing several thousand products by
> color group to force them into an official category too.

It doesn't take to much to build a custom search by color. You can
hide the colors in the description using html comments and a fixed
format...
Then the custom search just wraps the keywords with a vertical bar.

You can see it here:
<A HREF ="http://www.artgeo.com/shop/merchant.mv?Screen=3DSRCH&Store_Code=3DAG">http://www.artgeo.com/shop/merchant.mv?Screen=3DSRCH&Store_Code=3DAG</A>

In this case, I'm stripping the colors off of the description instead
of using comments, but either would work.
=20
> Thanks,
> -Barrett
> http://handmade-paper.us
> Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
> ShipWorks by Interapptive.com
>=20

Search for "red" finds textured



Try this. Instead of "red" use " red". This works of course only if there is
the term red with a blank before it.

Andreas Toman
PCINET, LLC
Miva Development, Installation & Upgrade
"E-commerce is the next step in the evolution ..."
www.pcinet-llc.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Barrett
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured

I beat this horse a year or two ago.......with no luck maybe something
has changed for better now ?
Using Viking Coders Search manager in lieu of mm4 built in with a 4.20
store.

Goal is to search for products with a specific color like red, blue,
green, yellow, black etc

Search for "red" finds textured because the name contains the string
"red"
This is bad.

What can be done about this limitation ?

Will MM 5.x do any better ?

I would really like to think that I would NOT need to create an
addtitional field for keywords to get proper results which would of
course be dependent on the user comprehending how to apply the advanced
search technique.

Also would like to avoid categorizing several thousand products by
color group to force them into an official category too.


Thanks,
-Barrett
http://handmade-paper.us
Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
ShipWorks by Interapptive.com

Search for "red" finds textured



On 5/6/05, Andreas Toman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Try this. Instead of "red" use " red". This works of course only if there=
is
> the term red with a blank before it.

right, but that also find "reduced", "redesigned", etc. adding spaces
on both ends rule it out at the end of a sentence, or if the color is
followed by a comma.

really is no magic bullet other than a minor customization.
=20
> Andreas Toman
> PCINET, LLC
> Miva Development, Installation & Upgrade
> "E-commerce is the next step in the evolution ..."
> www.pcinet-llc.com
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Barrett
> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:41 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured
>=20
> I beat this horse a year or two ago.......with no luck maybe something
> has changed for better now ?
> Using Viking Coders Search manager in lieu of mm4 built in with a 4.20
> store.
>=20
> Goal is to search for products with a specific color like red, blue,
> green, yellow, black etc
>=20
> Search for "red" finds textured because the name contains the string
> "red"
> This is bad.
>=20
> What can be done about this limitation ?
>=20
> Will MM 5.x do any better ?
>=20
> I would really like to think that I would NOT need to create an
> addtitional field for keywords to get proper results which would of
> course be dependent on the user comprehending how to apply the advanced
> search technique.
>=20
> Also would like to avoid categorizing several thousand products by
> color group to force them into an official category too.
>=20
> Thanks,
> -Barrett
> http://handmade-paper.us
> Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
> ShipWorks by Interapptive.com
>=20

Search for "red" finds textured



As good as these solutions are though, they aren't practical to manage with
a large product database. They also rely on have pre-configured searches set
up and won't work when a customers enters search terms himself. Someone
manually entering the terms "red" and "sock" will still find matches for
"textured socket grips".

There are several workarounds that will work for various stores in various
situations but an improvement in the core search function is the only thing
that will come close to being a universal solution.

Hopefully, one of the workarounds will be better than nothing in Barrett's
case though.

Dan
Impulse Creations

For low priced back issue comics and the very best in service visit us at
www.impulsecreations.net and be sure to look for information on our
discounted subscription service with free bags and free shipping!

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Bill Guindon
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:16 AM
To: Andreas Toman
Cc: Barrett; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured

On 5/6/05, Andreas Toman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Try this. Instead of "red" use " red". This works of course only if there
is
> the term red with a blank before it.

right, but that also find "reduced", "redesigned", etc. adding spaces
on both ends rule it out at the end of a sentence, or if the color is
followed by a comma.

really is no magic bullet other than a minor customization.

> Andreas Toman
> PCINET, LLC
> Miva Development, Installation & Upgrade
> "E-commerce is the next step in the evolution ..."
> www.pcinet-llc.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Barrett
> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:41 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured
>
> I beat this horse a year or two ago.......with no luck maybe something
> has changed for better now ?
> Using Viking Coders Search manager in lieu of mm4 built in with a 4.20
> store.
>
> Goal is to search for products with a specific color like red, blue,
> green, yellow, black etc
>
> Search for "red" finds textured because the name contains the string
> "red"
> This is bad.
>
> What can be done about this limitation ?
>
> Will MM 5.x do any better ?
>
> I would really like to think that I would NOT need to create an
> addtitional field for keywords to get proper results which would of
> course be dependent on the user comprehending how to apply the advanced
> search technique.
>
> Also would like to avoid categorizing several thousand products by
> color group to force them into an official category too.
>
> Thanks,
> -Barrett
> http://handmade-paper.us
> Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
> ShipWorks by Interapptive.com
>

Search for "red" finds textured



You are saying that you put |red| commented out in your prod
description fields ?
Hmmm oh ok I see you are searching literally with pipes included "|red|"

That looks like a possibility I'll look further.

I did a keyword search on "red" at your site like an enduser would and
got this product in results that is not red.
<A HREF ="http://www.artgeo.com/shop/ ">http://www.artgeo.com/shop/ </A>
merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AG&Product_Code =DS0014

I see your color table strings are like
<A HREF ="http://www.artgeo.com/shop/ ">http://www.artgeo.com/shop/ </A>
merchant.mv?Store_Code=AG&Screen=SRCH&Search=|rust |
which don't include |red|

So for your description fields you would have

if the product was focused mostly on a rust color motif

Very resourceful idea you have there by using the pipes.
It looks like the only catch for me is that I'd have to ferret out all
our products, several thousand, into their color groups and apply a
type string to all the descriptions.

Correct me if I'm not following you there.

Pretty much all of our product names contain a color term; so I have
preset search links I built last night that only query the product
name. Works pretty good except for the red deal.

Thanks,
-Barrett
http://handmade-paper.us
Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
ShipWorks by Interapptive.com

On Friday, May 6, 2005, at 11:01 AM, Bill Guindon wrote:

> On 5/6/05, Barrett <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I beat this horse a year or two ago.......with no luck maybe something
>> has changed for better now ?
>> Using Viking Coders Search manager in lieu of mm4 built in with a 4.20
>> store.
>>
>> Goal is to search for products with a specific color like red, blue,
>> green, yellow, black etc
>>
>> Search for "red" finds textured because the name contains the string
>> "red"
>> This is bad.
>>
>> What can be done about this limitation ?
>>
>> Will MM 5.x do any better ?
>>
>> I would really like to think that I would NOT need to create an
>> addtitional field for keywords to get proper results which would of
>> course be dependent on the user comprehending how to apply the
>> advanced
>> search technique.
>>
>> Also would like to avoid categorizing several thousand products by
>> color group to force them into an official category too.
>
> It doesn't take to much to build a custom search by color. You can
> hide the colors in the description using html comments and a fixed
> format...
> Then the custom search just wraps the keywords with a vertical bar.
>
> You can see it here:
> <A HREF ="http://www.artgeo.com/shop/merchant.mv?Screen=SRCH&Store_Code=AG">http://www.artgeo.com/shop/merchant.mv?Screen=SRCH&Store_Code=AG</A>
>
> In this case, I'm stripping the colors off of the description instead
> of using comments, but either would work.
>
>> Thanks,
>> -Barrett
>> http://handmade-paper.us
>> Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
>> ShipWorks by Interapptive.com
>>

Search for "red" finds textured



On 5/6/05, Barrett <[email protected]> wrote:
> You are saying that you put |red| commented out in your prod
> description fields ?

Yep.

> Hmmm oh ok I see you are searching literally with pipes included "|red|"
>=20
> That looks like a possibility I'll look further.
>=20
> I did a keyword search on "red" at your site like an enduser would and
> got this product in results that is not red.
> <A HREF ="http://www.artgeo.com/shop/">http://www.artgeo.com/shop/</A>
> merchant.mv?Screen=3DPROD&Store_Code=3DAG&Product_ Code=3DDS0014
>=20
> I see your color table strings are like
> <A HREF ="http://www.artgeo.com/shop/">http://www.artgeo.com/shop/</A>
> merchant.mv?Store_Code=3DAG&Screen=3DSRCH&Search=3 D|rust|
> which don't include |red|

Well, he's just using the colors he thinks work best for him.

> So for your description fields you would have
>
> if the product was focused mostly on a rust color motif

Yep, can also do a list...
if it falls into multiple color groups. A search for any of the
colors surrounded by pipes will find that product.

> Very resourceful idea you have there by using the pipes.
> It looks like the only catch for me is that I'd have to ferret out all
> our products, several thousand, into their color groups and apply a
> type string to all the descriptions.
>=20
> Correct me if I'm not following you there.

You're following along just fine.

> Pretty much all of our product names contain a color term; so I have
> preset search links I built last night that only query the product
> name. Works pretty good except for the red deal.

Could probably use StoreMan, Excel, or MS Access to aid in building
the descriptions.

> Thanks,
> -Barrett
> http://handmade-paper.us
> Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
> ShipWorks by Interapptive.com

--=20
Bill Guindon (aka aGorilla)

Search for "red" finds textured



Thanks for the input on this.
I usually use Filemaker Pro and BBedit in case any other Mac users are
listening.

Barrett

On Friday, May 6, 2005, at 12:07 PM, Bill Guindon wrote:

> On 5/6/05, Barrett <[email protected]> wrote:
>> You are saying that you put |red| commented out in your prod
>> description fields ?
>
> Yep.
>
>> Hmmm oh ok I see you are searching literally with pipes included
>> "|red|"
>>
>> That looks like a possibility I'll look further.
>>
>> I did a keyword search on "red" at your site like an enduser would and
>> got this product in results that is not red.
>> <A HREF ="http://www.artgeo.com/shop/">http://www.artgeo.com/shop/</A>
>> merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AG&Product_Code =DS0014
>>
>> I see your color table strings are like
>> <A HREF ="http://www.artgeo.com/shop/">http://www.artgeo.com/shop/</A>
>> merchant.mv?Store_Code=AG&Screen=SRCH&Search=|rust |
>> which don't include |red|
>
> Well, he's just using the colors he thinks work best for him.
>
>> So for your description fields you would have
>>
>> if the product was focused mostly on a rust color motif
>
> Yep, can also do a list...
> if it falls into multiple color groups. A search for any of the
> colors surrounded by pipes will find that product.
>
>> Very resourceful idea you have there by using the pipes.
>> It looks like the only catch for me is that I'd have to ferret out all
>> our products, several thousand, into their color groups and apply a
>> type string to all the descriptions.
>>
>> Correct me if I'm not following you there.
>
> You're following along just fine.
>
>> Pretty much all of our product names contain a color term; so I have
>> preset search links I built last night that only query the product
>> name. Works pretty good except for the red deal.
>
> Could probably use StoreMan, Excel, or MS Access to aid in building
> the descriptions.
>
>> Thanks,
>> -Barrett
>> http://handmade-paper.us
>> Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
>> ShipWorks by Interapptive.com
>
> --
> Bill Guindon (aka aGorilla)
>

Search for "red" finds textured



I just tested a MM 5 store and it is NO different than 4.20 we run now.
Still fails on "Textured" and "red" - finds both while search term is
"red"

Thanks,
-Barrett
http://handmade-paper.us
Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
ShipWorks by Interapptive.com




On Friday, May 6, 2005, at 11:49 AM, mivalist wrote:

> As good as these solutions are though, they aren't practical to manage
> with
> a large product database. They also rely on have pre-configured
> searches set
> up and won't work when a customers enters search terms himself. Someone
> manually entering the terms "red" and "sock" will still find matches
> for
> "textured socket grips".
>
> There are several workarounds that will work for various stores in
> various
> situations but an improvement in the core search function is the only
> thing
> that will come close to being a universal solution.
>
> Hopefully, one of the workarounds will be better than nothing in
> Barrett's
> case though.
>
> Dan
> Impulse Creations
>
> For low priced back issue comics and the very best in service visit us
> at
> www.impulsecreations.net and be sure to look for information on our
> discounted subscription service with free bags and free shipping!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Bill Guindon
> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:16 AM
> To: Andreas Toman
> Cc: Barrett; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured
>
> On 5/6/05, Andreas Toman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Try this. Instead of "red" use " red". This works of course only if
>> there
> is
>> the term red with a blank before it.
>
> right, but that also find "reduced", "redesigned", etc. adding spaces
> on both ends rule it out at the end of a sentence, or if the color is
> followed by a comma.
>
> really is no magic bullet other than a minor customization.
>
>> Andreas Toman
>> PCINET, LLC
>> Miva Development, Installation & Upgrade
>> "E-commerce is the next step in the evolution ..."
>> www.pcinet-llc.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected]
>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Barrett
>> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:41 AM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured
>>
>> I beat this horse a year or two ago.......with no luck maybe something
>> has changed for better now ?
>> Using Viking Coders Search manager in lieu of mm4 built in with a 4.20
>> store.
>>
>> Goal is to search for products with a specific color like red, blue,
>> green, yellow, black etc
>>
>> Search for "red" finds textured because the name contains the string
>> "red"
>> This is bad.
>>
>> What can be done about this limitation ?
>>
>> Will MM 5.x do any better ?
>>
>> I would really like to think that I would NOT need to create an
>> addtitional field for keywords to get proper results which would of
>> course be dependent on the user comprehending how to apply the
>> advanced
>> search technique.
>>
>> Also would like to avoid categorizing several thousand products by
>> color group to force them into an official category too.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Barrett
>> http://handmade-paper.us
>> Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
>> ShipWorks by Interapptive.com
>>

Search for "red" finds textured



Hi Barrett,

What fields does your search box search when using VC Search? Where does
"Red" appear? What about "Textured"? In the product title? In the
description? Attribute? Are you using the Keywords feature? You might want
to configure your main search box to be more restrictive. For instance only
have it initially search Keywords and titles and attributes. Or you can use
Additional product fields and search those. What about a drop down where the
user selects what field he wants to restrict search to?

There are many ways to "searchandise."

Personally, I wish there was a means within VC Search to add weight to
certain products to intentionally skew results. Like using the word "red"
twice in the keywords would put it above all the other products with "red"
only once. Or order the importance of the fields searched. All titles first,
keywords second, description third. Any of these would help return more
accurate results (potentially, anyways).

I wouldn't mind an "exact match only" option either. But that would be the
users option, not mine. You don't always benefit from that scenario. You
miss out on plurals, word stemming, etc.

The reality is, if you don't have an organizational means in your data, you
will never get the results you desire. You will always be "smarter" than the
program. If you don't have a means to let the "stupid" program know what you
expect, it will always return "textured" for "red" unless you have a
specific set of data to search. Hopefully your DB is organized with the
data, and you would just need an extract. What you should consider is to
organize the data with as many attributes as possible and then build the
product titles, descriptions, etc, out of those elements in in your DB by
mixing text strings and variables. This way the variables are easily
accessible for other uses (such as organization). Hopefully, this would
translate into an ends-justifying-the-means for the extra work, though
higher sales and better search results.

HTH

Pete
TotalHosting.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Barrett
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 4:50 PM
To: mivalist
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured

I just tested a MM 5 store and it is NO different than 4.20 we run now.
Still fails on "Textured" and "red" - finds both while search term is
"red"

Thanks,
-Barrett
http://handmade-paper.us
Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
ShipWorks by Interapptive.com




On Friday, May 6, 2005, at 11:49 AM, mivalist wrote:

> As good as these solutions are though, they aren't practical to manage
> with
> a large product database. They also rely on have pre-configured
> searches set
> up and won't work when a customers enters search terms himself. Someone
> manually entering the terms "red" and "sock" will still find matches
> for
> "textured socket grips".
>
> There are several workarounds that will work for various stores in
> various
> situations but an improvement in the core search function is the only
> thing
> that will come close to being a universal solution.
>
> Hopefully, one of the workarounds will be better than nothing in
> Barrett's
> case though.
>
> Dan
> Impulse Creations
>
> For low priced back issue comics and the very best in service visit us
> at
> www.impulsecreations.net and be sure to look for information on our
> discounted subscription service with free bags and free shipping!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Bill Guindon
> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:16 AM
> To: Andreas Toman
> Cc: Barrett; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured
>
> On 5/6/05, Andreas Toman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Try this. Instead of "red" use " red". This works of course only if
>> there
> is
>> the term red with a blank before it.
>
> right, but that also find "reduced", "redesigned", etc. adding spaces
> on both ends rule it out at the end of a sentence, or if the color is
> followed by a comma.
>
> really is no magic bullet other than a minor customization.
>
>> Andreas Toman
>> PCINET, LLC
>> Miva Development, Installation & Upgrade
>> "E-commerce is the next step in the evolution ..."
>> www.pcinet-llc.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected]
>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Barrett
>> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:41 AM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured
>>
>> I beat this horse a year or two ago.......with no luck maybe something
>> has changed for better now ?
>> Using Viking Coders Search manager in lieu of mm4 built in with a 4.20
>> store.
>>
>> Goal is to search for products with a specific color like red, blue,
>> green, yellow, black etc
>>
>> Search for "red" finds textured because the name contains the string
>> "red"
>> This is bad.
>>
>> What can be done about this limitation ?
>>
>> Will MM 5.x do any better ?
>>
>> I would really like to think that I would NOT need to create an
>> addtitional field for keywords to get proper results which would of
>> course be dependent on the user comprehending how to apply the
>> advanced
>> search technique.
>>
>> Also would like to avoid categorizing several thousand products by
>> color group to force them into an official category too.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Barrett
>> http://handmade-paper.us
>> Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
>> ShipWorks by Interapptive.com
>>

Search for "red" finds textured



If push comes to shove I'll go the database route with some of the
suggestions in this thread.
In the beginning my advice to create extra fields specifically used to
focus searches or in this case simply creating a color group category
was not followed.
I've given thought to the many ways to skin the cat here with the least
amount of pain and suffering. <hehe>
I really liked one fellow method of enclosing each term in |pipes| for
prebuilt strings.

> What fields does your search box search when using VC Search?

Default is Name and Product Code

> Where does
> "Red" appear?

All over LOL Name and descriptions

> What about "Textured"? In the product title? In the
> description? Attribute? Are you using the Keywords feature? You might
> want
> to configure your main search box to be more restrictive. For instance
> only
> have it initially search Keywords and titles and attributes. Or you
> can use
> Additional product fields and search those. What about a drop down
> where the
> user selects what field he wants to restrict search to?

The prebuilt links are looking at Product Name field only.
It is really close since the product names typically have the color
term.

I just did some testing with Filemaker Pro, a very old version to
boot...
With a generic search it will red, redrig and omit bigred.
Simply doing an "Exact Match" by placing an =red it will find
only records that contain red as a user would expect.


I ask now why the search function on MM 4 or especially MM 5 cannot
handle it ?
Is it because the project directors haven't thought of it, the
programmers told them it is too much trouble, got better things to
do..., alien technology is required...???
Is there some technical reason that makes it impossible or nearly so
that prevents such functionality that a now dated version of a desktop
database application handles with ease ?

Thanks,
-Barrett
http://handmade-paper.us
Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
ShipWorks by Interapptive.com



>
> There are many ways to "searchandise."
>
> Personally, I wish there was a means within VC Search to add weight to
> certain products to intentionally skew results. Like using the word
> "red"
> twice in the keywords would put it above all the other products with
> "red"
> only once. Or order the importance of the fields searched. All titles
> first,
> keywords second, description third. Any of these would help return more
> accurate results (potentially, anyways).
>
> I wouldn't mind an "exact match only" option either. But that would be
> the
> users option, not mine. You don't always benefit from that scenario.
> You
> miss out on plurals, word stemming, etc.
>
> The reality is, if you don't have an organizational means in your
> data, you
> will never get the results you desire. You will always be "smarter"
> than the
> program. If you don't have a means to let the "stupid" program know
> what you
> expect, it will always return "textured" for "red" unless you have a
> specific set of data to search. Hopefully your DB is organized with the
> data, and you would just need an extract. What you should consider is
> to
> organize the data with as many attributes as possible and then build
> the
> product titles, descriptions, etc, out of those elements in in your DB
> by
> mixing text strings and variables. This way the variables are easily
> accessible for other uses (such as organization). Hopefully, this would
> translate into an ends-justifying-the-means for the extra work, though
> higher sales and better search results.
>
> HTH
>
> Pete
> TotalHosting.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Barrett
> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 4:50 PM
> To: mivalist
> Cc: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured
>
> I just tested a MM 5 store and it is NO different than 4.20 we run now.
> Still fails on "Textured" and "red" - finds both while search term is
> "red"
>
> Thanks,
> -Barrett
> http://handmade-paper.us
> Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
> ShipWorks by Interapptive.com
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, May 6, 2005, at 11:49 AM, mivalist wrote:
>
>> As good as these solutions are though, they aren't practical to manage
>> with
>> a large product database. They also rely on have pre-configured
>> searches set
>> up and won't work when a customers enters search terms himself.
>> Someone
>> manually entering the terms "red" and "sock" will still find matches
>> for
>> "textured socket grips".
>>
>> There are several workarounds that will work for various stores in
>> various
>> situations but an improvement in the core search function is the only
>> thing
>> that will come close to being a universal solution.
>>
>> Hopefully, one of the workarounds will be better than nothing in
>> Barrett's
>> case though.
>>
>> Dan
>> Impulse Creations
>>
>> For low priced back issue comics and the very best in service visit us
>> at
>> www.impulsecreations.net and be sure to look for information on our
>> discounted subscription service with free bags and free shipping!
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected]
>> [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Bill
>> Guindon
>> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:16 AM
>> To: Andreas Toman
>> Cc: Barrett; [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured
>>
>> On 5/6/05, Andreas Toman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Try this. Instead of "red" use " red". This works of course only if
>>> there
>> is
>>> the term red with a blank before it.
>>
>> right, but that also find "reduced", "redesigned", etc. adding spaces
>> on both ends rule it out at the end of a sentence, or if the color is
>> followed by a comma.
>>
>> really is no magic bullet other than a minor customization.
>>
>>> Andreas Toman
>>> PCINET, LLC
>>> Miva Development, Installation & Upgrade
>>> "E-commerce is the next step in the evolution ..."
>>> www.pcinet-llc.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [email protected]
>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Barrett
>>> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:41 AM
>>> To: [email protected]
>>> Subject: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured
>>>
>>> I beat this horse a year or two ago.......with no luck maybe
>>> something
>>> has changed for better now ?
>>> Using Viking Coders Search manager in lieu of mm4 built in with a
>>> 4.20
>>> store.
>>>
>>> Goal is to search for products with a specific color like red, blue,
>>> green, yellow, black etc
>>>
>>> Search for "red" finds textured because the name contains the string
>>> "red"
>>> This is bad.
>>>
>>> What can be done about this limitation ?
>>>
>>> Will MM 5.x do any better ?
>>>
>>> I would really like to think that I would NOT need to create an
>>> addtitional field for keywords to get proper results which would of
>>> course be dependent on the user comprehending how to apply the
>>> advanced
>>> search technique.
>>>
>>> Also would like to avoid categorizing several thousand products by
>>> color group to force them into an official category too.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> -Barrett
>>> http://handmade-paper.us
>>> Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
>>> ShipWorks by Interapptive.com
>>>
>>>
>>>

Search for "red" finds textured



Well, my hope is that since Merchant is now produced by a "search engine
company" that MM6 would get searches right. Unless they come out with a
replacement "module" or MM5.x that replaces the search code with something
better.

How is the "|term|" search any different than using the Keywords feature?
How do you force the searcher to limit to adding the |? Are you talking
about only in your "prebuilt" searches? You already added 4 extra fields to
your search interface. If "color" is such an important field, I would think
that you would make it standalone, searchable field in your store data. Are
you going to add that hidden term to each product description? That seems
much more limited in use than the additional product info (like "Grade").

As an aside, I would either shorten your "out of stock" message (or use the
short message version), or allow text wrapping. Either would make your
search results page look better. I also like losing the alternating colors
and putting in a simple style="border-bottom: 1px solid #000;" in the TDs.
Looks much sharper.

Pete

-----Original Message-----
From: Barrett [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 8:57 AM
To: Pete @ Total Hosting
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured

If push comes to shove I'll go the database route with some of the
suggestions in this thread.
In the beginning my advice to create extra fields specifically used to
focus searches or in this case simply creating a color group category
was not followed.
I've given thought to the many ways to skin the cat here with the least
amount of pain and suffering. <hehe>
I really liked one fellow method of enclosing each term in |pipes| for
prebuilt strings.

> What fields does your search box search when using VC Search?

Default is Name and Product Code

> Where does
> "Red" appear?

All over LOL Name and descriptions

> What about "Textured"? In the product title? In the
> description? Attribute? Are you using the Keywords feature? You might
> want
> to configure your main search box to be more restrictive. For instance
> only
> have it initially search Keywords and titles and attributes. Or you
> can use
> Additional product fields and search those. What about a drop down
> where the
> user selects what field he wants to restrict search to?

The prebuilt links are looking at Product Name field only.
It is really close since the product names typically have the color
term.

I just did some testing with Filemaker Pro, a very old version to
boot...
With a generic search it will red, redrig and omit bigred.
Simply doing an "Exact Match" by placing an =red it will find
only records that contain red as a user would expect.


I ask now why the search function on MM 4 or especially MM 5 cannot
handle it ?
Is it because the project directors haven't thought of it, the
programmers told them it is too much trouble, got better things to
do..., alien technology is required...???
Is there some technical reason that makes it impossible or nearly so
that prevents such functionality that a now dated version of a desktop
database application handles with ease ?

Thanks,
-Barrett
http://handmade-paper.us
Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
ShipWorks by Interapptive.com



>
> There are many ways to "searchandise."
>
> Personally, I wish there was a means within VC Search to add weight to
> certain products to intentionally skew results. Like using the word
> "red"
> twice in the keywords would put it above all the other products with
> "red"
> only once. Or order the importance of the fields searched. All titles
> first,
> keywords second, description third. Any of these would help return more
> accurate results (potentially, anyways).
>
> I wouldn't mind an "exact match only" option either. But that would be
> the
> users option, not mine. You don't always benefit from that scenario.
> You
> miss out on plurals, word stemming, etc.
>
> The reality is, if you don't have an organizational means in your
> data, you
> will never get the results you desire. You will always be "smarter"
> than the
> program. If you don't have a means to let the "stupid" program know
> what you
> expect, it will always return "textured" for "red" unless you have a
> specific set of data to search. Hopefully your DB is organized with the
> data, and you would just need an extract. What you should consider is
> to
> organize the data with as many attributes as possible and then build
> the
> product titles, descriptions, etc, out of those elements in in your DB
> by
> mixing text strings and variables. This way the variables are easily
> accessible for other uses (such as organization). Hopefully, this would
> translate into an ends-justifying-the-means for the extra work, though
> higher sales and better search results.
>
> HTH
>
> Pete
> TotalHosting.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Barrett
> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 4:50 PM
> To: mivalist
> Cc: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured
>
> I just tested a MM 5 store and it is NO different than 4.20 we run now.
> Still fails on "Textured" and "red" - finds both while search term is
> "red"
>
> Thanks,
> -Barrett
> http://handmade-paper.us
> Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
> ShipWorks by Interapptive.com
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, May 6, 2005, at 11:49 AM, mivalist wrote:
>
>> As good as these solutions are though, they aren't practical to manage
>> with
>> a large product database. They also rely on have pre-configured
>> searches set
>> up and won't work when a customers enters search terms himself.
>> Someone
>> manually entering the terms "red" and "sock" will still find matches
>> for
>> "textured socket grips".
>>
>> There are several workarounds that will work for various stores in
>> various
>> situations but an improvement in the core search function is the only
>> thing
>> that will come close to being a universal solution.
>>
>> Hopefully, one of the workarounds will be better than nothing in
>> Barrett's
>> case though.
>>
>> Dan
>> Impulse Creations
>>
>> For low priced back issue comics and the very best in service visit us
>> at
>> www.impulsecreations.net and be sure to look for information on our
>> discounted subscription service with free bags and free shipping!
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected]
>> [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Bill
>> Guindon
>> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:16 AM
>> To: Andreas Toman
>> Cc: Barrett; [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured
>>
>> On 5/6/05, Andreas Toman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Try this. Instead of "red" use " red". This works of course only if
>>> there
>> is
>>> the term red with a blank before it.
>>
>> right, but that also find "reduced", "redesigned", etc. adding spaces
>> on both ends rule it out at the end of a sentence, or if the color is
>> followed by a comma.
>>
>> really is no magic bullet other than a minor customization.
>>
>>> Andreas Toman
>>> PCINET, LLC
>>> Miva Development, Installation & Upgrade
>>> "E-commerce is the next step in the evolution ..."
>>> www.pcinet-llc.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [email protected]
>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Barrett
>>> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:41 AM
>>> To: [email protected]
>>> Subject: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured
>>>
>>> I beat this horse a year or two ago.......with no luck maybe
>>> something
>>> has changed for better now ?
>>> Using Viking Coders Search manager in lieu of mm4 built in with a
>>> 4.20
>>> store.
>>>
>>> Goal is to search for products with a specific color like red, blue,
>>> green, yellow, black etc
>>>
>>> Search for "red" finds textured because the name contains the string
>>> "red"
>>> This is bad.
>>>
>>> What can be done about this limitation ?
>>>
>>> Will MM 5.x do any better ?
>>>
>>> I would really like to think that I would NOT need to create an
>>> addtitional field for keywords to get proper results which would of
>>> course be dependent on the user comprehending how to apply the
>>> advanced
>>> search technique.
>>>
>>> Also would like to avoid categorizing several thousand products by
>>> color group to force them into an official category too.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> -Barrett
>>> http://handmade-paper.us
>>> Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
>>> ShipWorks by Interapptive.com
>>>
>>>
>>>

Search for "red" finds textured



Yep all this surrounds prebuilt searches where the pipes concept would
work.

I'll look into your tip when I get a chance, appreciate it, got 50
balls in air....

Barrett

On Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 10:15 AM, Pete @ Total Hosting wrote:

> Well, my hope is that since Merchant is now produced by a "search
> engine
> company" that MM6 would get searches right. Unless they come out with a
> replacement "module" or MM5.x that replaces the search code with
> something
> better.
>
> How is the "|term|" search any different than using the Keywords
> feature?
> How do you force the searcher to limit to adding the |? Are you talking
> about only in your "prebuilt" searches? You already added 4 extra
> fields to
> your search interface. If "color" is such an important field, I would
> think
> that you would make it standalone, searchable field in your store
> data. Are
> you going to add that hidden term to each product description? That
> seems
> much more limited in use than the additional product info (like
> "Grade").
>
> As an aside, I would either shorten your "out of stock" message (or
> use the
> short message version), or allow text wrapping. Either would make your
> search results page look better. I also like losing the alternating
> colors
> and putting in a simple style="border-bottom: 1px solid #000;" in the
> TDs.
> Looks much sharper.
>
> Pete
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Barrett [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 8:57 AM
> To: Pete @ Total Hosting
> Cc: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured
>
> If push comes to shove I'll go the database route with some of the
> suggestions in this thread.
> In the beginning my advice to create extra fields specifically used to
> focus searches or in this case simply creating a color group category
> was not followed.
> I've given thought to the many ways to skin the cat here with the least
> amount of pain and suffering. <hehe>
> I really liked one fellow method of enclosing each term in |pipes| for
> prebuilt strings.
>
>> What fields does your search box search when using VC Search?
>
> Default is Name and Product Code
>
>> Where does
>> "Red" appear?
>
> All over LOL Name and descriptions
>
>> What about "Textured"? In the product title? In the
>> description? Attribute? Are you using the Keywords feature? You might
>> want
>> to configure your main search box to be more restrictive. For instance
>> only
>> have it initially search Keywords and titles and attributes. Or you
>> can use
>> Additional product fields and search those. What about a drop down
>> where the
>> user selects what field he wants to restrict search to?
>
> The prebuilt links are looking at Product Name field only.
> It is really close since the product names typically have the color
> term.
>
> I just did some testing with Filemaker Pro, a very old version to
> boot...
> With a generic search it will red, redrig and omit bigred.
> Simply doing an "Exact Match" by placing an =red it will find
> only records that contain red as a user would expect.
>
>
> I ask now why the search function on MM 4 or especially MM 5 cannot
> handle it ?
> Is it because the project directors haven't thought of it, the
> programmers told them it is too much trouble, got better things to
> do..., alien technology is required...???
> Is there some technical reason that makes it impossible or nearly so
> that prevents such functionality that a now dated version of a desktop
> database application handles with ease ?
>
> Thanks,
> -Barrett
> http://handmade-paper.us
> Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
> ShipWorks by Interapptive.com
>
>
>
>>
>> There are many ways to "searchandise."
>>
>> Personally, I wish there was a means within VC Search to add weight to
>> certain products to intentionally skew results. Like using the word
>> "red"
>> twice in the keywords would put it above all the other products with
>> "red"
>> only once. Or order the importance of the fields searched. All titles
>> first,
>> keywords second, description third. Any of these would help return
>> more
>> accurate results (potentially, anyways).
>>
>> I wouldn't mind an "exact match only" option either. But that would be
>> the
>> users option, not mine. You don't always benefit from that scenario.
>> You
>> miss out on plurals, word stemming, etc.
>>
>> The reality is, if you don't have an organizational means in your
>> data, you
>> will never get the results you desire. You will always be "smarter"
>> than the
>> program. If you don't have a means to let the "stupid" program know
>> what you
>> expect, it will always return "textured" for "red" unless you have a
>> specific set of data to search. Hopefully your DB is organized with
>> the
>> data, and you would just need an extract. What you should consider is
>> to
>> organize the data with as many attributes as possible and then build
>> the
>> product titles, descriptions, etc, out of those elements in in your DB
>> by
>> mixing text strings and variables. This way the variables are easily
>> accessible for other uses (such as organization). Hopefully, this
>> would
>> translate into an ends-justifying-the-means for the extra work, though
>> higher sales and better search results.
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> Pete
>> TotalHosting.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected]
>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Barrett
>> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 4:50 PM
>> To: mivalist
>> Cc: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured
>>
>> I just tested a MM 5 store and it is NO different than 4.20 we run
>> now.
>> Still fails on "Textured" and "red" - finds both while search term is
>> "red"
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Barrett
>> http://handmade-paper.us
>> Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
>> ShipWorks by Interapptive.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, May 6, 2005, at 11:49 AM, mivalist wrote:
>>
>>> As good as these solutions are though, they aren't practical to
>>> manage
>>> with
>>> a large product database. They also rely on have pre-configured
>>> searches set
>>> up and won't work when a customers enters search terms himself.
>>> Someone
>>> manually entering the terms "red" and "sock" will still find matches
>>> for
>>> "textured socket grips".
>>>
>>> There are several workarounds that will work for various stores in
>>> various
>>> situations but an improvement in the core search function is the only
>>> thing
>>> that will come close to being a universal solution.
>>>
>>> Hopefully, one of the workarounds will be better than nothing in
>>> Barrett's
>>> case though.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>> Impulse Creations
>>>
>>> For low priced back issue comics and the very best in service visit
>>> us
>>> at
>>> www.impulsecreations.net and be sure to look for information on our
>>> discounted subscription service with free bags and free shipping!
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [email protected]
>>> [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Bill
>>> Guindon
>>> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:16 AM
>>> To: Andreas Toman
>>> Cc: Barrett; [email protected]
>>> Subject: Re: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured
>>>
>>> On 5/6/05, Andreas Toman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Try this. Instead of "red" use " red". This works of course only if
>>>> there
>>> is
>>>> the term red with a blank before it.
>>>
>>> right, but that also find "reduced", "redesigned", etc. adding
>>> spaces
>>> on both ends rule it out at the end of a sentence, or if the color is
>>> followed by a comma.
>>>
>>> really is no magic bullet other than a minor customization.
>>>
>>>> Andreas Toman
>>>> PCINET, LLC
>>>> Miva Development, Installation & Upgrade
>>>> "E-commerce is the next step in the evolution ..."
>>>> www.pcinet-llc.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: [email protected]
>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Barrett
>>>> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:41 AM
>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>> Subject: [mru] Search for "red" finds textured
>>>>
>>>> I beat this horse a year or two ago.......with no luck maybe
>>>> something
>>>> has changed for better now ?
>>>> Using Viking Coders Search manager in lieu of mm4 built in with a
>>>> 4.20
>>>> store.
>>>>
>>>> Goal is to search for products with a specific color like red, blue,
>>>> green, yellow, black etc
>>>>
>>>> Search for "red" finds textured because the name contains the string
>>>> "red"
>>>> This is bad.
>>>>
>>>> What can be done about this limitation ?
>>>>
>>>> Will MM 5.x do any better ?
>>>>
>>>> I would really like to think that I would NOT need to create an
>>>> addtitional field for keywords to get proper results which would of
>>>> course be dependent on the user comprehending how to apply the
>>>> advanced
>>>> search technique.
>>>>
>>>> Also would like to avoid categorizing several thousand products by
>>>> color group to force them into an official category too.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> -Barrett
>>>> http://handmade-paper.us
>>>> Hosted by Hostasaurus.com (MM v4.20 OUI)
>>>> ShipWorks by Interapptive.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
>