[t5c] Category Tree

[t5c] Category Tree



On 5/11/05, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> Bill,

Ok, I'm not the Bill you replied to, but he gets half of my email
anyway, so... :)
=20
> I think you missed my point. I am not upgrading to Merchant 5. I do
> have a copy of Merchant 5 so that I may learn the new Miva tokens and
> layout templates, but I will not upgrade anytime in the near future,
> I can't.

Understandable, and probably a wise choice to wait (even if you could
upgrade now).
=20
> Here is my beef.... My gut tells me that Merchant does not want to
> open the entire UI to customization in order to sell modules. (my
> opinion for all you listeners) I do not want 3rd party modules for
> layout and design. (no offense module developers) I need access to
> the templates for not just the category tree, but the attributes, the
> buttons, the breadcrumbs etc. etc.

I'm confused by some of this (but it's not that important).

Personally, I'm pretty sure that M5 will be wide open for development,
or the people in the beta group would be screaming by now. They're
not. They're converting modules.

You don't want 3rd party modules for layout and design, but you use
OUI? Call it what you will, but that's a contradiction.

Breadcrumbs and attribute templates were never a stock feature. If
you have either, you have 3rd party modules. If they're stock in M5,
that's a step forward on Miva's part (in my opinion).
=20
> I also wish Miva was a little more open... Merchant 5 was so hush
> hush... for what reason? If they were to say hey, this is what we
> are working on for future releases, this is the direction we are
> heading... that would be great! But I have to tell you, it is really
> tough to determine what direction to head when there are no signs.

They did announce the direction they were heading in. I believe, they
first talked about 'templated' Merchant 3 years ago. My only
disappointment is with how long it took for that to happen.

M5 is hardly 'hush hush', they had a beta group. For Miva, that's a
first. M1-M4 were simply released, and you found out what they did
when you installed them. M5 is practically 'glasnost' at this point,
I waited years for this to happen, and I wish I'd been a part of the
beta.

> I have three new sites on the back burner right now. Do I code these
> sites in Merchant 4 using OpenUI/OpenDesigner and then have to recode
> them in Merchant 5 in six months? ...or do I bite the bullet and
> code them in Merchant 5 and end up having to buy a bunch of modules
> to get store functionality in the future? ...or do you go with an
> entirely different Ecommerce solution?

Go with M4 using custom MMUI, or OUI as you choose. Few (if any) will
want to convert a store they just built within 6 months, and modules
will be supported for at least another year. If it works for you
today, why change until you have something else that's solid? The
point is, there's still quite a few older Merchant stores running...
because they just work.

Switching to another system may seem appealing, but that would only be
true if you ignore both, the learning curve, and the fact that no
solution is perfect. Any other solution will have problems, they'll
just be different problems (or perhaps the same problems). And you'll
have to learn the ways around them, just as you do with Merchant.

> Miva has put us in a bad spot and they are not communicating with the
> end users.... that sucks!

Again, I think they're communicating with us more than they have in
the past. They did peak about 3 or 4 yrs ago, but even then, it
didn't come close to what they're doing now.

In the end, I'm _very_ optimistic about Merchant 5.

--=20
Bill Guindon (aka aGorilla)

[t5c] Category Tree



Bill, Bill, Bill,

Don't get me started on the "beta group". I was dying to be a part of it
and was never asked - probably because I'm not a developer or a partner.
Second - yes it was shrouded in a secrecy called NDA. If you weren't "in"
you didn't know what was going on. I'm sure there would be all sorts of
reasons why I wasn't part of the beta group - but I figured if I could
beta test Ivo's stuff I could just about beta test anything. I figure
I'll be doing battle with DataPipe soon enough having to convince them
that my setup methods are better than theirs.

Leslie

I'm not sure exactly which version they were added but the stock MM does
have attribute templates but not breadcrumbs.
>
> Personally, I'm pretty sure that M5 will be wide open for development,
> or the people in the beta group would be screaming by now. They're
> not. They're converting modules.
>
>
> Breadcrumbs and attribute templates were never a stock feature. If
> you have either, you have 3rd party modules. If they're stock in M5,
> that's a step forward on Miva's part (in my opinion).
>
>> I also wish Miva was a little more open... Merchant 5 was so hush
>> hush... for what reason? If they were to say hey, this is what we
>> are working on for future releases, this is the direction we are
>> heading... that would be great! But I have to tell you, it is really
>> tough to determine what direction to head when there are no signs.
>
> They did announce the direction they were heading in. I believe, they
> first talked about 'templated' Merchant 3 years ago. My only
> disappointment is with how long it took for that to happen.
>
> M5 is hardly 'hush hush', they had a beta group. For Miva, that's a
> first. M1-M4 were simply released, and you found out what they did
> when you installed them. M5 is practically 'glasnost' at this point,
> I waited years for this to happen, and I wish I'd been a part of the
> beta.
>
>> I have three new sites on the back burner right now. Do I code these
>> sites in Merchant 4 using OpenUI/OpenDesigner and then have to recode
>> them in Merchant 5 in six months? ...or do I bite the bullet and
>> code them in Merchant 5 and end up having to buy a bunch of modules
>> to get store functionality in the future? ...or do you go with an
>> entirely different Ecommerce solution?
>
> Go with M4 using custom MMUI, or OUI as you choose. Few (if any) will
> want to convert a store they just built within 6 months, and modules
> will be supported for at least another year. If it works for you
> today, why change until you have something else that's solid? The
> point is, there's still quite a few older Merchant stores running...
> because they just work.
>
> Switching to another system may seem appealing, but that would only be
> true if you ignore both, the learning curve, and the fact that no
> solution is perfect. Any other solution will have problems, they'll
> just be different problems (or perhaps the same problems). And you'll
> have to learn the ways around them, just as you do with Merchant.
>
>> Miva has put us in a bad spot and they are not communicating with the
>> end users.... that sucks!
>
> Again, I think they're communicating with us more than they have in
> the past. They did peak about 3 or 4 yrs ago, but even then, it
> didn't come close to what they're doing now.
>
> In the end, I'm _very_ optimistic about Merchant 5.
>
> --
> Bill Guindon (aka aGorilla)
>

[t5c] Category Tree Miva Docs on subject



Hello again,

Well I found documentation on the Miva 5 category tree.
<A HREF ="http://www.miva.com/support/tips_tricks/tips/34.html=20">http://www.miva.com/support/tips_tricks/tips/34.html=20</A>

They claim you can modify the tree, but for the life of me when I click =
on
(any category) and click on 'category tree', I don't get the category =
tree
header or footer as shown in picture of docs? Just a place to upload a
picture?

Any ideas?

Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jason =
Henderson
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 7:18 PM
To: Leslie Nord - Webs Your Way
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [t5c] Category Tree


Just responding to
>heck I even learned what tokens to use to create the
>> cat tree where ever my little heart desired it. Come on >Miva, can it =

>> be that hard?

Jason


> Ummm, yes but can you modify it?
>
> Leslie
>
> > Leslie,
> >
> > You can put the category tree wherever you want in mm5=20
> > http://jmhonline.net/mvregister.html
> >
> > Jason
> >
> >
> >> I hear ya Dan - except that I use a combination of VC Templates and =

> >> OUI to create my layout - heck I even learned what tokens to use to =

> >> create the cat tree where ever my little heart desired it. Come on=20
> >> Miva, can it be that hard?
> >>
> >> Leslie
> >>
> >> > OK, I do not want to start a world war here, but it is currently=20
> >> > available in OpenUI and OpenDesigner right now. Not everyone is=20
> >> > going to take their store to this level, but a lot of the more=20
> >> > advanced site developers need this functionality in Merchant 5=20
> >> > for it to be a viable upgrade from their current Merchant 4 store =

> >> > using OpenUI/OpenDesigner.
> >> >
> >> > If I were to sit down with a blank Merchant 5 store, I could not=20
> >> > make my current Merchant4/OpenUI site using Merchant 5. I know=20
> >> > someone is going to use the argument that there are not many=20
> >> > modules available for Merchant 5 yet... well I am not using very =

> >> > many modules on my current Merchant 4 store. Almost all of the=20
> >> > modules I use are admin related like order tracking or store=20
> >> > statistics. I got away from layout modules a long time ago.
> >> >
> >> > Bottom line, I need "complete control" over the layout of my=20
> >> > store.
> >> >
> >> > Dan
> >> >
> >> > On May 11, 2005, at 6:37 PM, Bill Guindon wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> While I'm inclined to agree with you, in their defense, making a =

> >> >> templated cat tree is no small task. I'm not saying it's
impossible,
> >> >> just that's it's a tough job, and even tougher to do it 'right'=20
> >> >> -- where 'right' equals the perfect balance of features vs.=20
> >> >> simplicity.
> >> >>
> >> >> That said, I imagine you'll see a few variations on that theme=20
> >> >> (assuming that's possible with 5).
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
>
>
>

[t5c] Category Tree



--Apple-Mail-4-119037702
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=US-ASCII;
delsp=yes;
format=flowed

Again, I think you are missing something here. You cannot edit the
individual "components" or "items" of Miva Merchant 5. That is what
this entire conversation is about. OpenUI and OpenDesigner were the
only layout modules I needed. With Merchant 5, I see us going back
to the 5 different modules from 5 different developers to do what a
simple tweak in OpenUI or OpenDesigner would do.

As for the breadcrumbs, I made my own in OpenDesigner. I made them
look and operate just how I wanted them and I did not have to buy a
module to do so. In Merchant 5, you are going to have to buy a
module to change the appearance of the Breadcrumbs...am I right
here? As for the attributes and category tree.... you can move them
and set them anywhere you want in Merchant 5, but I cannot put the
individual attributes underneath attribute prompt without a module.
I cannot tweak the code of the category tree without a module.
Modules, modules, modules. That is where I see this all going.
Please tell me if I am wrong here....

Dan

On May 11, 2005, at 8:18 PM, Bill Guindon wrote:

> I'm confused by some of this (but it's not that important).
>
> Personally, I'm pretty sure that M5 will be wide open for development,
> or the people in the beta group would be screaming by now. They're
> not. They're converting modules.
>
> You don't want 3rd party modules for layout and design, but you use
> OUI? Call it what you will, but that's a contradiction.
>
> Breadcrumbs and attribute templates were never a stock feature. If
> you have either, you have 3rd party modules. If they're stock in M5,
> that's a step forward on Miva's part (in my opinion).


--Apple-Mail-4-119037702--

[t5c] Category Tree Miva Docs on subject



I'd say that was the old-fashioned replace the cat tree with HTML instead
of being able to maniplulate the dynamic cat tree.

Leslie

> Hello again,
>
> Well I found documentation on the Miva 5 category tree.
> <A HREF ="http://www.miva.com/support/tips_tricks/tips/34.html">http://www.miva.com/support/tips_tricks/tips/34.html</A>
>
> They claim you can modify the tree, but for the life of me when I click on
> (any category) and click on 'category tree', I don't get the category tree
> header or footer as shown in picture of docs? Just a place to upload a
> picture?
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Nick
>
>

[t5c] Category Tree Miva Docs on Subject



But where are the fields accessed to replace html? Even though basic it =
is
sufficient for my needs. I can't find them where the example refrences =
or
anywhere for that matter. I looked at demo sites for examples?

Best regards,

Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Leslie Nord =
-
Webs Your Way
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 7:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [t5c] Category Tree Miva Docs on subject


I'd say that was the old-fashioned replace the cat tree with HTML =
instead of
being able to maniplulate the dynamic cat tree.

Leslie

> Hello again,
>
> Well I found documentation on the Miva 5 category tree.=20
> <A HREF ="http://www.miva.com/support/tips_tricks/tips/34.html">http://www.miva.com/support/tips_tricks/tips/34.html</A>
>
> They claim you can modify the tree, but for the life of me when I=20
> click on (any category) and click on 'category tree', I don't get the=20
> category tree header or footer as shown in picture of docs? Just a=20
> place to upload a picture?
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Nick
>
>

[t5c] Category Tree Miva Docs on Subject



The Category Display > Header & Footer

Leslie

> But where are the fields accessed to replace html? Even though basic it is
> sufficient for my needs. I can't find them where the example refrences or
> anywhere for that matter. I looked at demo sites for examples?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Nick
>

>
>
> I'd say that was the old-fashioned replace the cat tree with HTML instead
> of
> being able to maniplulate the dynamic cat tree.
>
> Leslie
>
>> Hello again,
>>
>> Well I found documentation on the Miva 5 category tree.
>> <A HREF ="http://www.miva.com/support/tips_tricks/tips/34.html">http://www.miva.com/support/tips_tricks/tips/34.html</A>
>>
>> They claim you can modify the tree, but for the life of me when I
>> click on (any category) and click on 'category tree', I don't get the
>> category tree header or footer as shown in picture of docs? Just a
>> place to upload a picture?
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>
>> Nick
>

[t5c] Category Tree Miva Docs on Subject



--Apple-Mail-5-120188111
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=US-ASCII;
delsp=yes;
format=flowed

Nick,

The Tips & Tricks are not for Merchant 5, even though they show up in
the Merchant 5 admin. The examples they are showing you are for
Merchant 4 stores. This is what I have been trying to say in my
previous rants... you cannot do this without a module.

Dan

On May 11, 2005, at 8:41 PM, Nick J West wrote:

> But where are the fields accessed to replace html? Even though
> basic it is
> sufficient for my needs. I can't find them where the example
> refrences or
> anywhere for that matter. I looked at demo sites for examples?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Nick


--Apple-Mail-5-120188111--

[t5c] Category Tree



On 5/11/05, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> Again, I think you are missing something here. You cannot edit the
> individual "components" or "items" of Miva Merchant 5. That is what
> this entire conversation is about. OpenUI and OpenDesigner were the
> only layout modules I needed. With Merchant 5, I see us going back
> to the 5 different modules from 5 different developers to do what a
> simple tweak in OpenUI or OpenDesigner would do.

Why 5 modules vs. 2 modules? Maybe I just don't know enough about M5
(or OUI/OD) to see that. I'd bet that whatever you got from
OpenDesigner, will soon be offered by one of the many 3rd party dev's.
=20
> As for the breadcrumbs, I made my own in OpenDesigner. I made them
> look and operate just how I wanted them and I did not have to buy a
> module to do so. =20

Ok, you customized it, but... you did buy a module to do it, no?
OUI/Open Designer are both free? Am I really that far out of touch
with reality?

> In Merchant 5, you are going to have to buy a
> module to change the appearance of the Breadcrumbs...am I right
> here? As for the attributes and category tree.... you can move them
> and set them anywhere you want in Merchant 5, but I cannot put the
> individual attributes underneath attribute prompt without a module.
> I cannot tweak the code of the category tree without a module.
> Modules, modules, modules. That is where I see this all going.
> Please tell me if I am wrong here....

That's where it's been... I see it going in the opposite direction.=20
You'll need modules for the tough stuff, but the easy changes are
built in.

For a bit of history, I've been working with Merchant since Sept 1999.
I pretty much left the lists when they became "where can I get an OUI
module that does X" lists. When that happened, I had a this thought
stuck in my head...

"What do you think about the Miva Merchant Community? I think it
would be a good idea." (my apologies to Ghandi)

I guess you had to have been a developer when it was "open" to get that jok=
e.

ps: I'm hoping some of the other things I addressed will keep you
hanging in there. It'll be rocky for a bit, but the future seems
promising.

> Dan
>=20
> On May 11, 2005, at 8:18 PM, Bill Guindon wrote:
>=20
> > I'm confused by some of this (but it's not that important).
> >
> > Personally, I'm pretty sure that M5 will be wide open for development,
> > or the people in the beta group would be screaming by now. They're
> > not. They're converting modules.
> >
> > You don't want 3rd party modules for layout and design, but you use
> > OUI? Call it what you will, but that's a contradiction.
> >
> > Breadcrumbs and attribute templates were never a stock feature. If
> > you have either, you have 3rd party modules. If they're stock in M5,
> > that's a step forward on Miva's part (in my opinion).
>=20
>=20


--=20
Bill Guindon (aka aGorilla)

[t5c] Category Tree



On 5/11/05, Leslie Nord - Webs Your Way <[email protected]> wrote:
> Bill, Bill, Bill,
>=20
> Don't get me started on the "beta group". I was dying to be a part of it
> and was never asked - probably because I'm not a developer or a partner.
> Second - yes it was shrouded in a secrecy called NDA. If you weren't "in"
> you didn't know what was going on. I'm sure there would be all sorts of
> reasons why I wasn't part of the beta group - but I figured if I could
> beta test Ivo's stuff I could just about beta test anything. I figure
> I'll be doing battle with DataPipe soon enough having to convince them
> that my setup methods are better than theirs.

No conspiracy theory here. my "rough" formula is...

$1,000+ =3D Partner =3D Beta Tester =3D NDA

Had I not let my partner status lapse (along with many more important
things), I'd have been there.

Probably a good thing, as I'd have a tough time not talking about
things that I thought were stupid, and I don't have a good lawyer
handy ;)

> Leslie
>=20
> I'm not sure exactly which version they were added but the stock MM does
> have attribute templates but not breadcrumbs.

Yeah, but I meant HTML templates, not "attribute templates". The
first allows you total control of the look of
radio/input/checkbox/select, etc. The latter only lets you
copy/mirror an attribute to many products.

> >
> > Personally, I'm pretty sure that M5 will be wide open for development,
> > or the people in the beta group would be screaming by now. They're
> > not. They're converting modules.
> >
> >
> > Breadcrumbs and attribute templates were never a stock feature. If
> > you have either, you have 3rd party modules. If they're stock in M5,
> > that's a step forward on Miva's part (in my opinion).
> >
> >> I also wish Miva was a little more open... Merchant 5 was so hush
> >> hush... for what reason? If they were to say hey, this is what we
> >> are working on for future releases, this is the direction we are
> >> heading... that would be great! But I have to tell you, it is really
> >> tough to determine what direction to head when there are no signs.
> >
> > They did announce the direction they were heading in. I believe, they
> > first talked about 'templated' Merchant 3 years ago. My only
> > disappointment is with how long it took for that to happen.
> >
> > M5 is hardly 'hush hush', they had a beta group. For Miva, that's a
> > first. M1-M4 were simply released, and you found out what they did
> > when you installed them. M5 is practically 'glasnost' at this point,
> > I waited years for this to happen, and I wish I'd been a part of the
> > beta.
> >
> >> I have three new sites on the back burner right now. Do I code these
> >> sites in Merchant 4 using OpenUI/OpenDesigner and then have to recode
> >> them in Merchant 5 in six months? ...or do I bite the bullet and
> >> code them in Merchant 5 and end up having to buy a bunch of modules
> >> to get store functionality in the future? ...or do you go with an
> >> entirely different Ecommerce solution?
> >
> > Go with M4 using custom MMUI, or OUI as you choose. Few (if any) will
> > want to convert a store they just built within 6 months, and modules
> > will be supported for at least another year. If it works for you
> > today, why change until you have something else that's solid? The
> > point is, there's still quite a few older Merchant stores running...
> > because they just work.
> >
> > Switching to another system may seem appealing, but that would only be
> > true if you ignore both, the learning curve, and the fact that no
> > solution is perfect. Any other solution will have problems, they'll
> > just be different problems (or perhaps the same problems). And you'll
> > have to learn the ways around them, just as you do with Merchant.
> >
> >> Miva has put us in a bad spot and they are not communicating with the
> >> end users.... that sucks!
> >
> > Again, I think they're communicating with us more than they have in
> > the past. They did peak about 3 or 4 yrs ago, but even then, it
> > didn't come close to what they're doing now.
> >
> > In the end, I'm _very_ optimistic about Merchant 5.
> >
> > --
> > Bill Guindon (aka aGorilla)
> >
>=20

[t5c] Category Tree



Bill,

Did you use OpenDesigner? I get the feeling you did not.
OpenDesigner basically gave us access to the core code of Miva
Merchant. We could take a Screen or a Screen Object and do whatever
we wanted to it. (complete control) Merchant 5 by design does not
allow for this in the area of the screen objects. Each screen object
is basically a module, so you would have to be able to edit modules
in order to make a basic change to a screen object. (such as the
simple "Add" button) In order to edit or make modules, you have to
be a developer, which costs a lot of money.

Have you been able to play around with Merchant 5? If you have a
copy, try to turn off your Category Tree and create a new one. You
cannot do it without a module.

Dan

[t5c] Category Tree




>
> $1,000+ = Partner = Beta Tester = NDA

Exactly!!!

Leslie

[t5c] Category Tree



> How much do you know about Longhorn?
>
> -Bruce
>
That he has a cousin named Foghorn ;)

[t5c] Category Tree



Well, in V4 I knew how to do it using OUI - it was under Edit Store: >
Page Sections > Show Category Tree.

In MM5 is it Pages > Items > remove category_tree MMUI Category Tree and
then create a custom cat tree using HTML and then "wrap" it in the Global
Header and Footer like I used to in MM4?

Leslie

> Hi Leslie,
> I don't think you can - but you can create your own - just like we did in
> V4....
>
> Bill
>
> =============================
> Bill Gilligan
> Gilligan On-Line
> www.gilliganonline.com
> 850-233-8775
>

[t5c] Category Tree



Leslie Nord - Webs Your Way wrote:
>
> Well, in V4 I knew how to do it using OUI - it was under Edit Store: >
> Page Sections > Show Category Tree.
>
> In MM5 is it Pages > Items > remove category_tree MMUI Category Tree and
> then create a custom cat tree using HTML and then "wrap" it in the Global
> Header and Footer like I used to in MM4?
>
> Leslie

You don't need to put it in the global header and footer. You can
replace the line in the page template that calls the component for the
category tree. Just put your html directly into the page template.
When you click the update for the page, it will compile your html with
all the other stuff in the page template.

Compiling the template code is far faster at runtime than calling it
from a global header/footer which is text in a database. That is why
the new compiled templates is so much faster than the old technology of
putting templates in a database. Gone is the old technology of version
4 template pages. Do not look back.

Darren was on the right track with compiler implementation of objects.
But those are patches to a leaking boat. The compiled objects are still
better than the page templates that have to suck the text out of
databases and then run it as interpreted code.

Bottom line: put as much as you can in the page template so it will be
compiled. When you feel an important piece of the pie is missing, eg
category tree access, send your emails to miva's wishlist. If they are
bombarded, they may realize it is a must do feature.

--
Bill Weiland A2Z Emporium Plus <A HREF ="http://www.emporiumplus.com/store.mvc ">http://www.emporiumplus.com/store.mvc </A>
Modules for eCommerce. Mail Mgr, Coupon, PayPal, Froogle/Yahoo feeds
Rate This, Gift/Wish List, Wait List Mgr, EZ Batch, Shipping & more
Online Documentation <A HREF ="http://www.emporiumplus.com/docs">http://www.emporiumplus.com/docs</A>
Question <A HREF ="http://www.emporiumplus.com/mivamodule_wcw.mvc?Screen=SPTS ">http://www.emporiumplus.com/mivamodu...vc?Screen=SPTS </A>
|