Announcement

**lesliekirk** · 07-13-12, 07:35 AM

Re: Introducing: The eMediaSales Everything™ Subscription

Point of clarification, please. I noticed that modules can no longer be purchased individually, is that correct? I ask because a store owner is wanting to set up an additional store which needs to include only a couple of CBS/Viking Coders modules. To confirm, the initial price would be $119.99 and then $29.99 per month?

Thanks!
Leslie

**eMediaSales** · 07-13-12, 08:06 AM

Re: Introducing: The eMediaSales Everything™ Subscription

Hi Leslie,

Correct, we have 3 products now. :)
- Viking Everything
- Copernicus Everything
- eMediaSales Everything

Check for deal of the day, they each rotate pretty quickly for 25% off setup. :)

Regards,
James

**lesliekirk** · 07-13-12, 08:45 AM

Re: Introducing: The eMediaSales Everything™ Subscription

Ahhh okay, so if the store has one of each, it would be separate pricing for each "Everything"?

Viking Everything:
SETUP FEE: $119.99
MONTHLY FEE: $34.99

Copernicus Everything:
SETUP FEE: $119.99
MONTHLY FEE: $29.99

eMediaSales Everything:
SETUP FEE: $119.99
MONTHLY FEE: $29.99

Do you have any sort of "package" deal if they wanted all 3?

Thanks!
Leslie

**eMediaSales** · 07-13-12, 08:50 AM

Re: Introducing: The eMediaSales Everything™ Subscription

Absolutely - hit me up direct via email and I'll get you a coupon.

cheers,
James

**thinks** · 07-13-12, 04:28 PM

Re: Introducing: The eMediaSales Everything™ Subscription

I can't believe that eMedia wants to charge us for Setup AND a monthly minimun of $29.99 per MONTH, for ever and ever - especially if we don't WANT all of the mods, only one or two. Even then, it seems to money-grabbing.

And to add insult to injury, eMedia wants us to pay this for EACH of the 3 different Viking/Copernicus/Emedia mod bundles.

Am I the only one feeling outraged over this? If I'm not- then come on eMedia, back to your usual fair and friendly selves!!

**eMediaSales** · 07-16-12, 10:31 AM

Re: Introducing: The eMediaSales Everything™ Subscription

Hi Jean,

Our switch to recurring based sales has been covered many times. The short and skinny of it being that if we didn't switch, simple, we'd either (a) go out of business, or (b) we'd have to turn our focus to ONLY service-based systems (like our Quibber, eBook DRM and TaxData service-based modules). I think what we've come up with is pretty fair AND valuable to the merchant.

I thought long and hard about the best way to do it, and while not everyone will agree, I think the full line subscriptions give store owners the best value for the money. Each of our subscriptions is intended to cost less or similar to start than the "old way" of buying one or two modules up front, AND they include ongoing support and updates which we previously charged for individually. For the record, we make less up front on module sales with recurring than before switching, since most customers actually buy and use 3 to 4 modules. The setup fee is intended to help offset that a bit while we ramp up, and to help cover the initial support costs which primarily occurs within the first 90 days of purchase.

On the flip side, if we sold each module as a subscription individually, I think you'd see that it would rapidly become problematic for customers that wanted more than just one module. We'd need to charge somewhere around $15 to $20/mo to sell individual subscriptions, which I don't think would be reasonable in most cases since most of our customers use more than just one module. Folks would want them for $5/mo, at which point we wouldn't be profitable, go back to square 1. But at $20/mo, just two and you're already above the full line subscription cost. Rather than creating a new customer service nightmare of having everyone start with one module just to go to an Everything a month later when they want the next one, we decided to skip the middle step and get you as much functionality as we can right from the start. *Note: We're still supporting existing customers who want Single Subscription upgrades, but we're already seeing them ask to move up to the Everything.

I think the biggest difficulty we face is the change itself. Many people who are used to buying single mods from us won't appreciate the change. However, before Viking Everything was launched, we were getting a lot of calls from NEW Miva Merchant users about when the Viking Everything would be ready, because they didn't want to buy 3 or 4 modules up front they wanted the subscription!

Another value proposition to both the merchant and to us - is longevity. If we can convince you to use more modules without having to pay more, our customer lifetime value goes up, and this helps us stay profitable to be here for you next year when the next API change happens. If you could by just 3 channels of TV because they were your favorite ones and you never wanted to watch old Buffy or Battlestar re-runs, the cable company wouldn't be able to sell advertisements on any of the other channels. But you don't get just 3 channels, you get a slew of them, and someday you'll be flipping channels and watch a few shows and maybe get hooked on them. Now you've got more reason to stay with that company long term, and they become healthier for it.

We'd like you to try out more of our modules for much the same reason. It's good for you and good for us. :)

**jpatrickm** · 10-02-12, 11:05 AM

Re: Introducing: The eMediaSales Everything™ Subscription

I keep coming back to this subscription issue with clients... it's not getting any easier. Every time something goes wrong with a module, we have to figure out who created the module, where we have a subscription for it (if we even do), and where to get support or buy a subscription. It ends up taking hours - support links and upgrade links on the module admin screens no longer work - Viking redirects to eMedia on half the modules and mvt:rocks on the others... what is going on?

Clients are tired of getting told they need another $14.99 or $5 or $39.99 subscription just to fix a module. I can't help but wonder if module developers are trying to hold together a sinking ship. This is a land-grab - it looks to me like an effort to charge huge setup costs and monthly fees while they can cause pretty soon Miva might include these features as part of the shopping cart itself and that module will be void. If buying individual modules is not a profitable business then isn't that the point? Supply and demand - maybe it will work and the module developers will succeed and profit but I know that many of our clients have bailed on Miva Merchant because it just gets too difficult to manage the bolt-ons, modules, customizations etc when other shopping cart systems come with all of the features they want built in. Does it take money to run a real business? You bet - and business owners don't mind paying to get things done right, they just want it all to work correctly and actually help them be successful. The module system is falling apart and taking business owner's time away from running their business. I'm sorry but people just don't want to buy a subscription for every single module company they use. We shouldn't confuse the subscription system as working just because people are buying subscriptions... they are buying subscriptions because they have to or their store will break. They are paying the subscription fees and then calling me up saying, "get me the hell out of this shopping cart by next year". This isn't a long term solution.

And as far as the TV cable company analogy goes - that's exactly why people are canceling cable (myself included) and going with pay-for-what-you-want model - using Roku, Apple TV, Hulu, etc. Your comparison to the cable TV company was all too correct - except that industry is failing as well.

I'm sure everybody has their own opinion on this and I personally don't know what the perfect solution is, but from out here in my world sitting around the conference tables with clients, this isn't it.

**Rick Wilson** · 10-02-12, 08:59 PM

Re: Introducing: The eMediaSales Everything™ Subscription

Joe,

Ultimately James and eMedia have to do what's right for them.

As for Miva Merchant, today the average customer requires 1 or 2 modules and that's ToolKit and Coupons. Virtually everything else is built in at this point and Coupons plus much much more are coming soon.

I think what your witnessing is the transformation from where third party modules were the required norm to a world where they are the exception.

With that said, when you need an exception it's going to be more expensive than you're "used to".

Also with that said, if you look at what James has claimed above, 5 years ago the average Miva customer spent over $1k in modules to build a fancy new store with all the bells and whistles. Today they only need a few modules and the thought of someone spending $1k in modules to extend their store is really unheard of.

**jpatrickm** · 10-03-12, 12:15 PM

Re: Introducing: The eMediaSales Everything™ Subscription

I completely understand that eMedia must do what they need to do to survive... I'm saying that isn't a long term strategy that will be successful.

Maybe you're a little to close to the trees to see the forest but everything is absolutely not built into Miva at this point and if it is built-in, it doesn't function the way store owners want it to. The toolkit and coupon module are needed, as you stated, but also gift certificates, product reviews, follow-on emails, wish lists, shopping data feeds, social media sharing, advanced shipping modules, shipping services back-end integration, Quickbooks integration, and search - don't even get me started on search - Miva search is atrocious. WordPress has free plugins that include more then Miva these days.

Guys, I've been building Miva websites since 2000 and I've built a lot of them - I was a Miva evangelist for years and years, but now it's a harder sell with everything else available on the market. Most of my Miva business comes from clients who can't get it working and need it customized to their liking because it doesn't come out of the box the way they want it. That was fine 10 years ago but people expect more now. And no client of mine ever spent $1k in modules, not even close - they paid a few hundred maybe, plus the monthly hosting & licensing fee of $29, or $39, or $49 over the years. Now they are paying $49 +/- for the license, plus maybe a few hundred for dedicated servers, plus a hundred or more a month in subscriptions to maintain the modules. Add that all up and you're equally or more expensive then other platforms on the market and those platforms have much more built-in.

I know your Miva team is working their tails off to make up for lost time with a platform that has some catching up to do... Miva today is light years better then the original Miva and I commend all that effort - hell I even trained some of your best Miva employees over the years. But you can't just keep telling people like me out here in the field, and customers like Jean, who posted above, that we're all wrong and we just don't get it.

Customer do not like the module system, they do not like the subscription systems in place, and they don't like the features that Miva has to offer compared to other shopping cart systems. Whether they are right or wrong, they are not buying it and you're not selling it.

**Rick Wilson** · 10-03-12, 04:42 PM

Re: Introducing: The eMediaSales Everything™ Subscription

Joe,

I'm not disagreeing with you and I actually should've clarified. I was in many ways replying to a post I also deleted for different reasons.

There's 2 discussions here. One is about eMedia's business model, which is up to them.

The other is about where our product is going and the state of the market and I'm really only interested in discussing that second topic.

In addition, I likely am too close to the forest in some senses. Although with that caveat I'll say this. 36 months ago the laundry list of things "missing" was 10 times as long, 18 months ago it was 5 times and now it's relatively short. PR9 will address not just Coupons, but also Gift Certificates/Gift Cards, Split Payment, Automated Discounting, and much more.

PR 10 will cover multiple stores and lots of enhancements to an already robust Page templating system, Search and some other items.

On top of PR9 and 10, in each release through those cycles we'll be picking off features consistently from your list and others. Virtually everything you mention that's "lacking" today will be addressed between PR9/10 over the next 18 months.

In addition while some of our competitors have some or all of these features built in, they always have trade offs. Magento has the kitchen sink, but getting even a simple Magento store to scale performance wise is hard. Edit the source and you're SOL when it's time to upgrade.

The main SaaS competitors often have these items "included" but they have a narrow definition of what they do and if your needs are different than their definition, you don't have an alternative path.

We view this as a tortoise and hare kind of thing, we're very shortly going to have not only the list of features that used to be only high end that have worked their way to all ends of the market, but we'll have it while being able to preserve performance, interoperability, security and upgrade path.

I truly appreciate your feedback on this. If we're going to veer off from eMedia to core Miva functionality it should probably become a new thread, move to email, phone, or all of the above.

In addition, I know you're local, so I'd love to have you by to discuss in person and go over our roadmap with you.

**thinks** · 10-03-12, 05:08 PM

Re: Introducing: The eMediaSales Everything™ Subscription

I'm the Jean who had her previous post here deleted- presumably because I mentioned the names of some specific other shopping carts. I totally agree with Joe's comments, which he has so eloquently put.

And yes for 15 or more years I have LOVED Miva- and am one of the ones who spent a couple of thousand dollars on mods etc. And Miva support and mod support was usually superb - especially people like Leslie Kirk on the forums, who must just about live beside her computer. BUT having said that, I'm bailing out of miva - please just re-read the last 2 paragraphs of Joe's post directly above.

I really hope that Miva can get together with mod-writers and hammer out something new (the ToolKit was in the right direction, but is difficult for beginners to use...) and I would happily return.

**Mark Hood** · 10-04-12, 06:22 AM

Re: Introducing: The eMediaSales Everything™ Subscription

Originally posted by Rick Wilson View Post

Today they only need a few modules and the thought of someone spending $1k in modules to extend their store is really unheard of.

I should just keep quiet and stay out of this but ehh what the heck...

If I do the math correctly... In two years someone will have given emedia $959.75 for a viking everything subscription? This doesn't make anything less expensive for a business that plans to stay in business.

Keep in mind I'm certainly not saying these are not great modules and that they are not needed to have a store that actually works.

Just that long term to say this is less expensive is incorrect because this still does not handle a few other lacking features.

**lesliekirk** · 10-04-12, 10:12 AM

Re: Introducing: The eMediaSales Everything™ Subscription

I think I may have to take out my moderator wand and close this thread. This is the business model that EMS feels will work for them. Let's leave it at that.

Leslie

**thinks** · 10-04-12, 02:31 PM

Re: Introducing: The eMediaSales Everything™ Subscription

Unfortunately this is all so closely tied in with Miva itself - a symbiotic relationship- that I don't think in fact that it IS two separate issues. This is something that Miva needs to resolve if they are to keep us happy as customers.... Let's call this the to core Miva functionality thread, and keep it going - we're all talking about Miva merchant here, not EMS or the other "All-inOnes", to be honest. LOVE to hear more of what's in the pipeline for Miva caore, and a timeline.... :)

Announcement

Introducing: The eMediaSales Everything™ Subscription

Introducing: The eMediaSales Everything™ Subscription

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